infobong.com

...and to think there are thousands and thousands more young men and women, the vast majority from low to middle class backgrounds - many without the opportunity to attend University without the promise of the G.I. Bill, on the other side of the world on high alert. Some are having trouble sleeping tonight because they don't know if tomorrow is their last day on Earth; they're following orders because they believe they will be fighting for what America stands for... they are probably more aware than we know that "following orders" might mean innocent casualties and probably have feelings about that, also.

I don't understand enough of what's happening in our world to presume that one side or the other is right. I hope these protesters are actually working very hard to form their own opinions, rather than towing the party line, believing that celebrities know more than they seem to, and protesting for the sake of something to do that's more exciting than classes.

Somehow, for most of them, I doubt it.

I just hope that if/when the war begins, we consider that there are families, quite a few from Austin, actually, who have sons and daughters and fathers and mother doing what THEY think is right... and risking a whole heck of a lot more than these students to do it.

I hope the anti-war folks get that these kinds of events will affect those families pretty negatively when they come across as unsupportive of fellow Americans.

When Bush says "go," I'd prefer we let those kids do their job as quickly and efficiently as possible so that they come home safely, where I, for one, will be welcoming them back.

What a world we live in.

For the sake of disclosure, my dad's a Vietnam vet, and I'm the first person in his family to go to college - let alone graduate school - so I'm not exactly a hyper-privileged white kid posturing. When I talk to Dad on the phone, I can't bring up the president, since it makes him too angry.
Anyway, I find it interesting how conservatives play these "support our troops" class politics when anti-war protests emerge, but chastise liberals for "waging class war" when they point out tax cuts help the rich. This is one of the deepest contradictions I see in contemporary conservative ideology. One of the factors that motivates me the most to protest is the class bias in our millitary. There aren't a lot of doctors' and software developers' kids in the enlisted ranks, but there are a lot of brown, working class, or rural kids who aren't offered a lot of opportunities, as you point out. I think its pretty offensive when a guy who was AWOL for years from the Texas National Guard is deciding their fate.Here's a (beat-up) pic of my dad and a war buddy in Vietnam:

Hrmm... tangential argument! The issue these folks are protesting is whether or not we should be at war.

I frankly think David - who is an acquaintance - is making an ad hominem attack, veiled in that emotional "Support Our Troops" rhetoric. He suggests that most of the protestors are "towing the party line," following the lead of celebrities, rather than formulating their own opinions, and atttacks the class status of the protestors in order to attack their credibility rather than their positions. So, I suppose its a little more vicious than a tangential argument.

No. Not quite.

For one, I wouldn't exactly call myself "Conservative." Unfair of you to automatically assume ANYTHING about where I stand politically because I don't support this protest as a 100% healthy activity for the community-at-large. I would say it's hard to use me as an example for the "contradiction ... in contemporary conservative ideology" when you don't know where I stand on "taxes for the rich."

I stand by the argument that most people at that protest probably have not done adequate research to presume they know the best thing to do... The topic is way too complicated, and students are way too preoccupied.

Frankly, I doubt that I know ANYONE, myself included, who can speak authoritatively about what our country should and should not do.

Have most of these students BEEN to Iraq? Have most of them served their country or participated in government (it would be interesting to see how many of them voted in the last elections... probably more than I think, but probably not as many as Chris would contend)? Have they spent countless hours researching the history of the Middle East and US relations in the Middle East to understand how we got to where we are? Do they have all the data and intelligence that our government has collected, unfiltered by the media?

For most, of course not. But that's ok. That's why we have elected leadership.

So I believe that people, in general, look to newspapers, The Internet, and, yes even movie stars for shortcuts to opinion forming... I never meant to imply that they are mindless robots, but the messages that they recieve daily from their info-sources seem, to me, slanted anti-War; so it stands to reason that the are at least influenced one way.

These protesters WERE towing the party line; that's the mob mentality of protests, by definition!

So to be clear, I think before the war starts is relatively a better time to speak up... It's probably too little, too late, right now, but by all means, these students have the right to assemble around agendas they're fed by whatever sources they trust.

I'm not sure that this is the right way to do it, however, and I hope (against the inevitable) it doesn't continue when more Americans start dying.

I'm jaded by the "Protest-as-Party" mentality I've experienced at the modern-day rallies I've attended. You know what I mean: huge puppets, drum circles, bands, movie stars making speeches, political lobbyists passing out "homemade" signs, drug-use, etc. etc. It feels to me way-too-polished and way-too-engineered... as if organizers got their messages from Political Party Headquarters to shepard as many people as possible to "agree" with the stance. I'll grant you there probably weren't many puppets at this rally, but nonetheless, I'd love to know the ratio of curiosity and fun-seekers vs. passionate, properly informed supporters.

I challenge the net result to the community is anything other than the press coverage saying "here is a group of x number of people, most of whom are freaks (ex. show the puppets, show the long-haired hippies, etc) or sheltered from society (ex. students), who don't seem to have anything better to do on a weekday. And they don't like their government!!!"

It's very sad that the true message, however right or wrong, tends to get lost by the nature of the activity.

I, again, just hope that the students realize that there are other kids, far, far away who have a very difficult job to do, with severe consequences, who will probably look at this as "elitist, rich, anti-american activity." Worse, their families will see these "U.T. brats" as squandering their privledge to attend classes.

I think you and I probably agree on one thing: it's unfair. Nonetheless, I will "Support The Troops," rhetoric, or not, because I think they're fighting and dying for something they believe in... that's more than I've EVER done.

And thanks for sharing the photo; your dad looks incredibly young! That's always shocking to me to see the ages of the soldiers being asked to kill.

I just saw this... this sums up where I'm coming from pretty cutely (warning: slow download):

link

Ok. I think I have a slightly better handle on your argument now.

What I want to know is who is marketing all of this anti-war ideology that these people are being spoonfed? Riddle me that. It certainly doesn't seem to be the normal mass-media outlets. They all seem to be toeing (towing?) the party line.

You are complaining that they are protesting for wrong reasons? Perhaps. Who cares? I'm complaining that the public reasons we are being given for going to war are the wrong ones. Again. Who cares? Whatever their reasons, they are entitled to their opinions... as are you. Why the classist rant, though? Are you underprivileged soldier on the front lines? What's your perspective?

War is a big step to get into. As the American people, we deserve to see real evidence as to why we should waste billions of dollars and thousands of lives (ours and theirs). There has not been adequate proof, and we have not been attacked. The history is that we funded many of the dictators during the 80s that we have gone back to declare war on in the 90s. No one is safe at any time. Terrorism will never be ended by any military action abroad.

Grah!

The more I think about this the madder it makes me.

So. You're saying that it's not ok for me to want to save lives because I am white and have a partial college education (read: I come from a position of moderate privilege)? This boggles my mind.

(I Stand corrected: "toeing")

Who is marketing the anti-war stuff?! Wow! It's the same political machine that urges uninformed kids to "Rock the Vote" and hate everything that Bush says on first blush. There exists large sums of money and lobbyists that only exist to pursuade the average 18-30 yr. old to think a certain way. That's just the reality of our system of government.

(I freely admit that such a machine exists on both sides of the fence, though... It just seems that "Liberal" or "Leftist" groups are more influencial over younger demographics (does it have something to do with their relative $$$ and power in society (i.e. Rightists would pander to Rich Power, stereotypically)? Their rebelling against parents' politics? Probably.)

I also think it's peer pressure, to some extent... I'd love to take a straw poll at universities to see a. what students think about the war and b. what they think their friends think about the war.

At this point the mass-media outlets are servants of sensationalism more than a particular stance... Giving Sean Penn and Madonna so much attention for their anti-war views serves nobody but their movie and record sales and certainly pushes an agenda; and it just seems decadent, for some reason.

Short of going to the sources, myself, I don't know of many ways to get accurate data on this issue, so I don't feel qualified saying whether or not it's right to be at war. And, no offense intended to students, but I certainly don't trust their opinion, either.

The classist rant? In my day job, I deal with families from very poor neighborhoods that have sons and daughters on the other side of the world currently putting their lives in danger because they've agreed to do a job they think is right. In the eyes of these families, I see what "terror" really means. I also see what "proud American" means.

So the reason I even decided to comment on this post in the first place was that I had a conversation last night with a single mother (White, 40ish, low-income, East Austin) whose 21-yr old son had already seen action in Afghanastan and would probably be redeployed in Iraq when the stuff hit the fan. Her son, from a very young age, dreamed of becoming a lawyer, and saw the GI Bill as a very good opportunity to get some training, to learn even more responsibility (this guy had been helping his mother care for his young sister), and to get some help in financing.

This was 3 years ago. Before it all began.

She was not very pleased or understanding when she heard about the protest, especially the part about leaving classes; her quote was something like, "I wish my son could be sitting in those empty seats, right now..."

You asked what my perspective is on this (i.e. am I an underprivledged soldier)? NO! That's my point. I'm lucky. That's why you don't see me skipping out on doing my work (which, incidentally, DIRECTLY impacts these families) to go to what's percieved as a "party." It's because I DON'T know what it's like... because I DON'T arrogantly claim to know all the answers. War sucks. It's bad. People, innocent people, will die. Do I think it's right that the woman's son could DIE as a result of this war?

I DON'T KNOW. I DON'T CLAIM TO HAVE ALL THE ANSWERS.

You ask who cares if people are protesting for the wrong reasons. I think the activity is harmful to the Austin community, especially to those with millitary families... so I care, for one. I think it's harmful to scared mothers and children and to the soldiers who hear about their peers so angry at their even being over there, particularly if the protestors DON'T HAVE ALL THE ANSWERS (and I KNOW that these students can't possibly come close to a drop of what Bush and his advisors know about the situation).

Worse yet, I think protests are harmful to the CAUSE, ITSELF, when people are there for the wrong reasons. It puts uninformed people in the spotlight and discounts their opinions, EVEN IF THEY ARE RIGHT.

That's it.

I never said because you are white and from moderate privledge, you can't worry about saving lives. I want you to care about saving this woman's son's life. However, I don't think that walking out of classes is going to help... in fact, it will be/is resented by these families (incidentally, BECAUSE you are, in their eyes, more-than-moderately privledged... sad, but true).

I think over a beer, we'd probably agree more than it seems here (ex. "the public reasons for going to war are the wrong ones")... I'm more concerned about this particular implementation of expression than with the pro vs. anti-war stance, itself.

(And sorry for eating so much real estate on your blog, Chris. It's an emotionally charged issue, to say the least, so I appreciate you putting up with my letting off some steam and sorting out some ideas in my head. I'm sad it's gonna get a whole lot worse before it gets better.)

(it wasn't my intent to make a correction. I really don't know if it's "toeing" or "towing")

I suppose I got a bit worked up there, and I apologize.

So what do we do, then? Do those of us that have tried to research the issue and come to a considered viewpoint sit idly by? I don't think any of us are angry at the actual men and women on the ground in the armed service... we're angry at the administration that is going to misuse them. I guess I can't unconditionally support troops that are doing something I perceive as, if not actively wrong, at least misguided. Does that mean that I wish any of the people in the service ill? No. I very much respect them and whatever hopes or goals led them to the service.

What do we do, though? If we can't protest because we don't have all the facts and it undermines the people who will actually fight (despite the fact we don't want them to be doing so) and some of us are doing it for the wrong reasons. What do we do?

I'm trying to think of it. Do we write our elected officials? Sure, but it takes time for that to work. Time we probably don't have. I guess I should have written 3 months ago. Do we protest with our vote... in 2004? Seems impractical.

What do we do?

I don't know. It all seems inevitable. I think you helped me discover the one redeeming thing about protests... it gives people, otherwise powerless, the feeling of DOING something, regardless of effictiveness of the activities. Hrmmmm.

If by "democracy" you mean that chick on the right, then democracy is pretty hot ...